Curse

drago34 · Sep 04, 2008, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

There seem to be three general ways for males to respond to female gamers. Young boys tend to be either in denial, and/or think of girl gamers as unconditionally inferior; if proven otherwise, it's back to denial ("You're not really a girl!" and such). Older men, generally those who play with their wives and such, often don't give it a second thought unless it's pointed out to them. Young men around their 20s tend to display the reaction your boyfriend described. I can say from personal experience that I've been called a "lucky bastard" for having a girlfriend who enjoys Civ IV....even though that has twice resulted in being forced to stay up until 7 am for an extended play session. And no, there's not a bit of innuendo there.

Of course, this is how I see things, and there will always be exceptions, including the overly-mature 12 year old, and the horrendously backwards 45 year old. It's sad that there are still people out there that demean female gamers, but you can find bigots of pretty much any flavor online, if that's any consolation.

QFT, My girlfriend is a gamer and can kick my ass haha.

samifly · Sep 04, 2008, 06:16 AM // 06:16

I think its wrong to have a GLBT-only guild (I am in a GLBT-friendly guild) and it is pretty much as Lady Lozza said, drama, crap, etc... comes from BOTH SIDES, and to say Girls are the only cause of it is pretty much silly (sorry Avarre, your "facts" are just plain wrong) and sounds like a 5-year old boy shouting no girls allowed and girls have cooties. I know plenty of girls who are competitive, have warriors, etc... so sorry, but no.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 04, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

I like what Linsey said about Princess Peach. ^^

I don't know if this is true for all of Guild Wars, or if I'm just a moron magnet, but I find an impressive amount of misogynistic idiots in Guild Wars. People who say that "girls can't play warriors because they're weak," people who say "there's no girls on the internet" and of course the people who think "girls can't play video games." No one really agrees with me when I say otherwise, and I get a lot of crap from other people/my alliance because I'm a girl gamer who dares to stand up for herself.

Personally, I think that when the immature males who fail to see that girls are capable of playing and succeeding at video games get over their mental block, there will be less of an uproar at girl gamers.

Sadly, you're not the only moron magnet. Luckily, I seem to attract more people who *at least claim to be* female players. Only said "at least claim" because sadly, there are guys out there who pretend to be girls *bleh*.

I really do not understand why guys find it weird or unusual that girls play video games. Anyone can play video games just as much as any other person, girls are no exception. But I must say, that this topic is getting annoyingly ridiculous because of the naivety of people in this world.

Sadly, idiots cannot be removed. But if I could, I would, and under the pretense of "population control."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

If it's the latter, make a yuri-hentai game about it.

Perverted mind is perverted x.x

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

The problem with most games catered towards girls is that the devs spend so much time in gearing it towards girls (or so they think) that they completely detract from making a good game. What happens is that the game is just incredibly beautiful, with good sounds and music and lots of ways to make your character pretty, but it has abysmal gameplay.

Once more, I gotta quote you, just because I agree once more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordheinous

But I've personally known other guys who also enjoy the romance genre, and appreciate something besides "Me guy! You girl! We bang!" and far as development goes. I think that the panel member who said that guys secretly enjoy such things (romance and relationship development) is correct; many of the guys who I've known have felt a need to hide that from society, as they don't want to be denounced as "girly" or, even more common, being called "gay" (the damn bigots causing two problems at once right there). I think that more romance in games would sell, not because it would aim towards the female crowd per se, but because there are plenty of people, both guy and girl, who actually like such things.

First, lol at the "Me guy! You girl! We bang!" because of how true it is on most online games. *Take a look at pre-searing if you don't believe me, that place is usually filled with cybering Neanderthals*

Second, I agree completely. I will admit, I love romance stories and plots. How I've noticed it, the guys who put on the "big macho man" identity and acts like a tough guy all the time is really a softy on the inside, but is afraid of letting that out because of the false accusations. Heck, many people think I'm a big tough guy, which is only because of being 6'7", but as I said, I like romance and other things that people would consider "girly," but I also like a ton of things that would go under the category of "tough guy." There are probably many people who like the same things as girls, such as romance stories, even if they only like it so that they can relate to their girlfriends/wives and whatnot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Not to mention how much guild drama can result (we had a core monk refuse to play in the Celestial Tourney because she didn't think the new cape looked nice) - a stereotype perhaps, but a recognizable trend. There are top-tier guilds that don't allow girls because they don't want to risk having to deal with that kind of garbage.

Girls are not the only one who complain over things like that Avarre. I've seen guys leave guilds because of being annoyed by someone they could simply have just ignored. I've only seen a girl complain about a cape a few times, and most of those times it was just them trying to get their way, using their own femininity to their advantage over the guys in the guild. Which I find simply pathetic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Raenef

I have yet to meet a girl with a main character of anything else, especially that of an assassin or warrior.

Most of the girls I know seem to like playing Dervish, Necromancer, or Mesmer. Mostly Dervish. Of course, I know quite a few monk main playing girls.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

Attention "female gamers", no one actually gives a flying ---- about your sex on the internet unless you deliberately choose to bring it to their attention. For that matter, gay-gamers, no one cares about your sexuality. People just like being part of little cliques; I guess it makes them feel comfortable. Personally I even have trouble with people who go out of their way to identify themselves as "gamers" like the nerds on kotaku. These little pseudo-cultures and the non-issues they constantly like to talk about are slightly amusing but mostly just annoying.

While I partially agree with you, I don't think you're entirely correct in what you're saying with regards to how males approach females. When I join PUG vent channels for PvP or PvE, or a new guild's vent for the first time, there are several guys people who immediately draw attention to the fact that I'm a "female gamer" as soon as the word "hey" comes out of my mouth. When they give responses like that, it affects me on a comfort level. It's strange having guys give extra recognition and respect right off the bat to me just because I'm female. Most of these people tend to be in their teens, however; actually, it's kind of weirder then because you have 14 year old boys hitting on you O.o.

I also think there's that middle-ground, where more guys make lame, bad jokes about females in their presence, than there are actual creepy guys who like the attention of females. I'm fairly certain on this point because even though tons of guys have presented themselves stupidly upon introduction, very few have ever bothered to persue my attention on a creepy level. On average I'd say no more than 1-2 people per large guild. And only 3 people on the internet (2 GW, 1 elsewhere) have ever posed a real threat to my physical well-being.

On the flip side, I agree that some females (whether they are aware of it or not) set themselves up to get this kind of attention by pointint out the fact that they have breasts. In my old guild, a female started a cry-baby thread on our forums about how people jested at her "girly" signature (pink stuff). She said it hurt her feelings, and made her feel uncomfortable, and made all sorts of female-gender remarks. If anything, their personality is only further fueled by guys wanting to coddle the precious lone female in their guild by stroking her ego through gifts, company, compliments and shelter. It's pathetic. Those females need to get their validation elsewhere.

While I do agree that mostly girls bring the attention to themselves by saying they are a girl, not all do, as you pointed out. Some simply get on vent or on forums have a "girly" thing about them. Any smart man should be able to tell when a person is a girl most of the time, just by how they act, and if you can't, you need to get out more.

I do agree that there are a lot of guys who try to "coddle the precious lone female," but I say that is to be expected, just as guys hit on the random good looking girls at the bars, guys online will hit on the girls who have similar interests as them. It's actually only natural, and it will get annoying at times, but all of life is annoying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

Ventrilo. It's where almost all my problems come from -_-

As for those who are likely to reply, "if ventrilo is your problem, don't use it!" but do you honestly expect me to sacrifice my participation in a guild or team of people I mostly really like and enjoy? I have hope that most people are decent, which is why I continue to use that as a method of communication and participation.

While, I do feel like joking and saying "don't use ventrilo," I won't because of the seriousness of this matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

There used to be a guy in my alliance who said that girls couldn't play games a very long time back. He said that I was probably a guy because, well, we've ABed together and not meaning to brag but I can play one hell of a mean ranger. The rest of the team (alliance group) said "Kai's a girl you know" and he said "nah, any girls who play MMOs always suck at it, kai has to be a guy."

There will be those who joke, and there will be the rednecks who don't know shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

But there is also the problem of those overfeminine girly girls who play MMOs... seriously, I just want to skin them with a spoon. I'm talking about the ones that cause drama because the guild cape doesn't have pink unicorns on it or because they want to have an e-relationship with the leader... who happens to be married IRL.

The bolded part made my rofl. The rest, dealt with that before. Annoying as heck -.-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

There are two extremes on the boundary here, the males who think that girls are inferior (I can name a few in this thread...) and the females who think they should get special treatment just because they're female.

Me? The only special treatment I ask for is that you refer to me as a "she" or a "her", thank you.

I hope I'm not going to turn out to be one of the few who you can name who think girls are inferior x.x Because I know they aren't. Girls have kicked my arse to Mars and back in games like Mortal Kombat before... And the treatment you ask for, is what I give to every female, not just female gamer, except one, no matter what they do to get a different treatment. And I think everyone should do the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

To conclude my example, I want to bring up words like "sexist" or "racist" or "homophobic." Those are all words we are familiar with, and all know what they mean. I will not call you or most other men in this game "sexist." But what if I drew this conclusion based on personal experiences: black males (and women) are annoying, loud, agressive, unintelligent, primitive humans. How many people do you think would jump to the conclusion that I am a racist? I hate to go in this direction, but it is something I am familiar with. In my life I have not a black person that I've even come close to liking, let alone want to befriend. That's not to say that I think all white males are innocent and pleasant - I don't - but people won't make themselves aware that I think this as well. And that's not to say that I'm even racist; I think racism is a terrible thing, and so pitifully ignorant, and I am sad for all sorts of people who had to suffer because of racism, sexism, homophobia, etc.
I would consider this to be a severe example of heuristics.

I, sadly, must agree with you, once again. I can't even think of anything that I can add.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfated Fat

So where do we draw the line between stereotypes/heuristics and sexism or racism? I believe there is a very slippery slope we need to be careful with, and I think excusing males in gaming is headed in that direction. With how little life experience young males have, and how much time of it is spent with games, they need to be aware, careful and learn from good examples that there is a difference between gaming and reality, and they need to be able to respect women (and men).

Sadly, in an overall standard, there is no line. At least one person can consider any comment racist, sexist, or whatever, even if that comment was a compliment to someone, a person can turn it into an insult to another person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

Guys have breasts too, they're just not as obvious. ^^

Some are...

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Originally Posted by Taurucis

Human nature is a bad thing, it needs to be destroyed.

Fully agree. Sadly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

TBH, I find that most of the "good" warriors I meet in PvE are women. I think it's because PvE is generally more relaxing, takes less time, and is less stressful. It's less competitive, and women are naturally more on the cooperative side.

In PvE, warriors are generally people who sit there and get beat on and tank all the blows instead of doing anything that they should be doing - damage. In PUGs, all the good warriors stand there and get hit and hit and hit. In PvP, warriors lead groups and do damage. So I don't think this is relevant. (mostly because we're talking about competitive top guilds.)

If "good" warriors are defined as tanks, I think there is something that is wrong. Every person I talk to with an idea of what a warrior should be *and not those moron who pick a warrior because he is "big" and the "armor is cool" or because they "like swords"* have told me that tanking is not what warriors were meant for, PvE or PvP. The warriors in PvE who just sit there taking damage are not playing the profession the way many many people I have talked to, who doesn't act like a complete ignoramus, believes they should be played as. Dark Necrid, your idea of what a warrior does in PvP is what a warrior should do all around, so please don't think that the people who play warriors because of looks/swords is how everyone in PvE plays a warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Guilds that don't allow females are like that because of the female drama ever so present in Guild Wars with them. (seriously, you really should check out the competitive female drama sometime) I doubt they want some 19 year old female to come in and cause drama with one of their core team and cause the guild to shut down/lose good members.

Better safe than sorry.

We're not talking about the same kind of drama.

Not to be offensive, but these three responses read out sexist attitude all over them. Better word more carefully.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Considering this entire thing is about some guy calling Avarre sexist about a competitive side fact that most women in the top guilds play support classes, no, no it isn't relevant.

But what you're talking about, is what we're talking about and discussing, because of what Avarre & that other guy said!

Um...i'm not! Avarre was talking about PvP only. PvE has no place in that because no shit you can say WELL GOOD FEMALE PVE PLAYERS ARE OFFENSIVE, but his point (that he was called SEXIST for.) was that TOP FEMALE PVP PLAYERS MOSTLY PLAY SUPPORT CLASSES.

i give up. this is hella OT anyways and I'm not getting across what I am trying to say very well. Frustrating.

Just because Avarre brought up PvP, does not limit the entire thread to only PvP. PvE needs to be brought up as well at times.

I think I responded to enough posts...
__________________________________________________ ______________
All in all, this whole "no girls on the internet" and the whole female gamer "issue" is just another form of the archaic "men are better then women" idea, aka sexism, that has been implanted in most men's minds since longer then I care to know. It is something that will never be completely rid of, once the gaming "issue" is over, men will start looking at the newest thing and say that girls cannot do that and only men can, then some women will come along and prove them wrong and the whole cycle starts all over again. Same thing goes with racism. Neither will ever be solved because people always want to be better.

Auron of Neon · Sep 04, 2008, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with high end PvP, and thus Avarre's post

Why do you even bother? PvE doesn't have a following, it doesn't have a metagame that matters, and it doesn't demand playing well to get past areas. It isn't the same. A chimpanzee can mash buttons on a keyboard and win with bullshit like ursan and consumables, so comparing females to males in that environment is as pointless as it is possible to be.

Anyone can do PvE. Guilds aren't required. Vent isn't required. Playing as part of a team isn't required. Learning to play a specific class/role and being good at it isn't required. All of those things have bearings on how males and females play and interact, especially when they're forced to interact daily in stressful circumstances like Automated Tournaments. PvE doesn't have any of that. You could have a black person (or any race, really) and an absolute racist in the same party in PvE and still do incredibly well. In PvP, that is nearly impossible.

You grasp that there is a difference between PvP and PvE, but not that PvE doesn't have anything by which to gauge... anything! Sure, people can make snide comments in team chat, but that really doesn't affect the outcome of the party. In most PvE areas, someone can literally leave the party in rage and the group will probably still win. What's the point of discussing male/female roles without anything to base arguments on?

Baibai · Sep 04, 2008, 08:49 AM // 08:49

I don't remember reading Avarre ever saying that drama was girl specific or why people respond as if he had said they were all drama queens either.
Of course both male and females will contribute to drama. I think the difference is however that with females the potential for drama of the e-relationship kind can (and probably will) occur, which is usually more intense and well...more dramatic than the usual "ur bad", "this cape sucks", "I don't want to play x profession anymore I want to be a warrior". Even if the girl didn't intend for it to happen there is still the point that she was the eventual catalyst.

However with that said I'm not aware of any guild that has barred girls from their roster solely because of 'drama potential'. The only guild that I can think of at the moment to declare they were not interested in recruiting girls was because they thought it might be a confronting and inappropriate environment (they enjoyed making very sexually explicit and crude jokes) and probably didn't want to have to censor themselves to avoid offending.
Doesn't matter too much, if people want to stereotype/exclude a group then those who don't agree probably wouldn't want to play with them anyway - at least they are doing everyone the favour of being upfront about it so others can avoid them completely.

I'd also stand by the argument that most girls have a tendency to gravitate towards the support classes. In terms of high-end pvp play they feature exclusively in such roles (yes it is a tiny fraction of the community but success usually means a certain level of skill - the point of contention - which is difficult to measure overall in other areas of the game). And although you may chastise people for saying such things, there has not even been a handful of examples where a girl has featured in a frontline role in high-end competitive pvp. (pve, imo is much more different: flexible nature of the group/build - you don't NEED certain classes or utility as much as a gvg build does and if you don't agree with decisions made go h/h; the warrior=tank! mentality; and the comparative lack of finesse and skill required to run a warrior bar as effectively ie 1/4 knocks, positioning around target, consistently landing bulls, appropriate target selection and correct strat calls.)

Not that I'm implying that girls are simply incapable of playing those positions, but either they don't choose to (prefer the non-aggressive playstyles) or simply aren't that good at it (which probably will offend someone, but seriously most guys aren't very good warriors in the realm of pvp either...). Most girls also usually wont perform the duty of strat caller either which is an important and stressful role.
Warrior/frontline in a pvp build is a highly contested spot in competitive play because (and I agree) it's the most fun. In my experiences at least, nearly all girls are pretty flexible in what they will play and therefore are relegated to the roles most people don't usually want (flagger, monk, defensive midline).
I guess in my opinion a number of factors contribute to why we don't see females playing the number 1 warrior spot in gvg/ha/whatever, but feel free to disprove my points (I would love to see some female chiizu-calibur warriors running around

)

Sorry for the lengthy rant! To finish off though...

Quote:

Originally Posted by redstarx

I think some of those drama queens are really guys...

lol

Lonesamurai · Sep 04, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiao Yang

I like girls and games.

As any hot blooded male should...

Along with cars and beer!!!

glacialphoenix · Sep 04, 2008, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by redstarx

I think some of those drama queens are really guys...

I know a guy (who has since quit GW) who pretended to be a girl so he could get stuff from the people who went "OMFG YOU'RE AN ASIAN GIRL GAMER".
It was, as I recall, pretty successful. Which says a lot about both sides.

Taurucis · Sep 04, 2008, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baibai

In my experiences at least, nearly all girls are pretty flexible in what they will play and therefore are relegated to the roles most people don't usually want (flagger, monk, defensive midline).

See, that's what I mean by they're forced into the role. Guys usually voice their opinions louder than women, so the outcome is that women get the last pick of what they want to play.

Also, a lot of people expect women to be the "pleasers" and play the roles that guys feel are "not manly" or "the girl's job."

I would guess that one of the major factors why you don't see many girls in PvP is because of the subconciously sexist attitudes. Some of your "facts" might be true, but they are still sexist and offensive and they will naturally deter people.

Konig Des Todes · Sep 04, 2008, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auron of Neon

-a bunch of stuff on how PvE is too easy-

Actually, "snide comments in team chats" can screw up a team. I have seen it before, sadly. You say PvE is too easy and whatnot, it has no stress and no difficulty. Yet, I know many people who have issues with playing even PvE in Normal Mode. But besides all that, with PvE being just as liable - despite your belief - about how people play, my point was that you cannot just look at one point of a game and judge everyone of a specific trait on that one part of the game. If you only look at High End PvP, then you get a bunch of self-proclaimed "hard-core gamers" and people who deal with more stress, especially the support people. If you add PvE, you see people in a more relaxed state because it is not as hard. Sure, most people can steam roll over most of PvE, but not everyone, and hardly can PuGs ever do that because they have little organization.

If you look at PvE with H/Hing everything, and look at PvE with PuGs, you get two completely different things. Same goes for "low-end PvP" and "high-end PvP" just as "PvP as a whole" and "PvE as a whole."

What I was saying did have nothing to little to do with Avarre being called a sexist, because I don't care about that. My point was to get to DarkNecrid that you cannot only talk about PvP when on these types of topics. Which, he was just plainfully ignoring everything but high end PvP. And sadly, I think I have to point that out to you as well. And I hope I did.

DarkNecrid · Sep 04, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Yes I am sure rawr just magically forces three pounds to play Monk because no one else wants to, not that she's really good at it and they don't have anyone else who is as good at it. Same goes for all the other top guilds (which again, is what we're talking about), clearly they are all delegated to play Monk, Ritualist, and Mesmer not because they are good at it, but because no one else wants to.

Maybe you should ask Three Pounds or one of the other top female players if they get forced to play their role at all, because I'm absolutely 100% positive they will all say no. Anyone who thinks a female in any top guild is forced into their role is pretty ignorant. Someone who is forced into a role, won't like being forced into something, and then they won't play their hardest = you will lose. You need to keep everyone happy to win and you sorta don't keep people happy by forcing them to play roles they don't really want to play or aren't the most effective at simply because no one else wants to.

Quote:

What I was saying did have nothing to little to do with Avarre being called a sexist, because I don't care about that. My point was to get to DarkNecrid that you cannot only talk about PvP when on these types of topics. Which, he was just plainfully ignoring everything but high end PvP. And sadly, I think I have to point that out to you as well. And I hope I did.

Please follow the topic.

Here I'll reiterate:

A: Avarre says something about top PvP.
B: X person says he's sexist about top PvP.
C: me and others started arguing with that person about top PvP.
D: bunch of other people randomly come in and arguing about not top PvP.

If you want to argue about sexism and women and roles about how women totally don't just play support classes in PvE, then you should probably do it when it's relevant to the discussion at hand, and not when we're arguing about Avarre being called sexist because he said women only play support classes in top PvP and there's very little good female warriors/non-support classes in top PvP.

I'm not ignoring anything but top PvP for christ's sakes, that's what we were RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing talking and discussing about was how is it sexist to say there is no good females who main non-support classes in top PvP when there isn't?

Taurucis · Sep 04, 2008, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

shnip

Are you even reading what Azazel The Assassin just posted?

Quote:

You say PvE is too easy and whatnot, it has no stress and no difficulty. Yet, I know many people who have issues with playing even PvE in Normal Mode. But besides all that, with PvE being just as liable - despite your belief - about how people play, my point was that you cannot just look at one point of a game and judge everyone of a specific trait on that one part of the game. If you only look at High End PvP, then you get a bunch of self-proclaimed "hard-core gamers" and people who deal with more stress, especially the support people. If you add PvE, you see people in a more relaxed state because it is not as hard. Sure, most people can steam roll over most of PvE, but not everyone, and hardly can PuGs ever do that because they have little organization.

I am talking about Guild Wars as a whole. Not JUST PvP, not JUST PvE, but BOTH PVE AND PVP.

(Btw, I think the subject of discussion has moved.)

DarkNecrid · Sep 04, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

I am talking about Guild Wars as a whole. Not JUST PvP, not JUST PvE, but BOTH PVE AND PVP.

That's great, no one else was until a bunch of people decided to push a huge "ZOMG SEXISM EVERYWHERE" agenda out of nowhere. This whole sexism thing started and is about how is it sexist to say there are no women who play non-support classes in top PvP if none of them do. Calling Avarre sexist for that is what sparked this whole thing which is why we were discussing for a whole page and a half top PvP and the comment towards Avarre and random people decided to not read those and take it for the whole RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing game to derail the topic even further.

Quote:

Are you even reading what Azazel The Assassin just posted?

No because I'm pretty sure my post was referencing yours:

Quote:

See, that's what I mean by they're forced into the role. Guys usually voice their opinions louder than women, so the outcome is that women get the last pick of what they want to play.

Also, a lot of people expect women to be the "pleasers" and play the roles that guys feel are "not manly" or "the girl's job."

I would guess that one of the major factors why you don't see many girls in PvP is because of the subconciously sexist attitudes. Some of your "facts" might be true, but they are still sexist and offensive and they will naturally deter people.

He posted while I was typing.

EDIT:
Someone should just make a sexism in guild wars topic so we can at least remove the last 3 pages from this one which didn't bother to do shit with if it was sexist or not to say there are no women who play non-support classes in top PvP if none of them do. And then get back to the topic about Girls and Games.

Jae Onasi · Sep 04, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

This is addressing posts from throughout the thread so if it sounds a bit stream of consciousness, my apologies.

1. Is there a difference in how males and females are treated in game? Yes. Same as there is in RL.

2. Are most games designed for guys? Yes--because that's who originally were buying the games. Designers wanted to sell to their market and designed it accordingly. What they haven't caught up with is that women have started joining in markedly increasing numbers.
My generation is the first that grew up playing video games on a regular basis--both boys and girls. I had a hiatus from gaming while going through college because of all the time required for my particular course of study and the lack of money to buy the games/consoles and later because of the requirements of taking care of 2 young children along with other work/non-work activities. I started gaming seriously again about 4 years ago and found it was more entertaining than most of the caca on TV, and it also gave me something I can talk to my kids about. My hubby and kids play GW--it's a way we can do something together, rather like what I had with my family with board games when I was growing up.
The demographic of game players is changing faster than devs can keep up, I think. However, if they want to increase their market share to broader segments, they're going to have to think about what the broader segment of gamers plays/wants in a game, and adjust accordingly.

3. What makes a game good for many women?
a. Good story.
b. good solid gameplay that doesn't require a steep learning curve. I don't have time to work on a PhD in Skill and Weapon Usage to Defeat the Uber-Bad-Guy.
c. good story.
d. if you're going to have people interact and have relationships, include OPTIONAL romance. Some people like romance (I happen to), some people don't. My son is at the age where kissing is just beyond gross and would avoid romance like the plague. If romance is optional, both groups are happy.
e. Did I mention a good story?
f. avoid mindless button mashing. I got that out of my system playing Asteroids 25 years ago.
g. encourage different play styles--one of the reasons I love playing Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines is because I can run around being sneaky to get around the battles, or I can put a ton of points into being Sniper Goddess and just shoot the snot out of everything in sight.
h. make it easy to stop in the middle of battle if need be. When my kids get hurt or have some (real or imagined) emergency, I have to put the game down immediately. One of the problems I have with an MMO is that there's no way to pause a battle. However, if I sacrifice a pixel toon for my kids, that's the way it goes.
g. Here's another suggestion: A Good Story.
h. give me an option to cover up my women a little more, or if you're going to have half-naked Xena-boob women running around, at least be a little fair and give me a studly Hercules type. And here's a hint--having seen real women in real chain-mail bikinis, I can tell you they're darned uncomfortable and don't even protect against sunburns, let alone something like a sword strike. At least find something a little more realistic even for fantasy. Or perhaps give us clothing and boob-size choices--that way we can decide whether we want B-cup women in realistic armor, and the 13 year old horn-dogs can have the half-naked EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-cup pixelated pin-ups.
i. goodstory-goodstory-goodstory
j. Don't insult my intelligence by assuming that just because I'm female, I like cutesy pink princess frou-frou crap. I don't. Some girls might, I'm not one of them.
k. A. Good. Story. (are we sensing a theme here yet?)
l. I like variety in my gaming. I like to think about the options and choose what I think will work best for that situation skill or weapon-wise. This is why I don't play FPS stuff much--I prefer something more interesting than "Level a: Jungle level. Shoot bad guys in trees. Level b: City level. Shoot bad guys in windows. Level c: Cave level: Shoot bad guys on ledges. Level d: Sea level: Shoot bad guys in boats."
m. Hint, hint: A good story.
n. Corollary to point l.: Make my choices actually count. While I like the variety of choosing Sousuke or Jin, or Master of Whispers vs. Margrid, it has absolutely no other bearing than what kind of spare hero you get. You still end up whooping Abaddon's butt, or whatever substitute he has for one, no matter what you do. It would be nice if there were a few different effects of hero choice.
o. Choice of level of gore. Make it as gross as you want, and I guarantee you having worked in the medical field as long as I have, it won't bother me. However, if my kids are around and playing with me, I'd love to be able to turn the gore/violence down to a more kid-friendly level.
p. Difficulty levels that range from easy to hard for PvE play. So penalize me a few xp if I'm playing in easy mode if you want--I'm OK with that. However, at least give me the option of easy mode. Some days are crazy and I just want to relax, not get frustrated that I can't kill Fluffy the Wonder Bunny because I forgot to read the wiki and equip the uber-Bunny-kill skill in town an hour back. Remember, some of us are playing for the story, not because we enjoy being the brunt of some sadistic dev's idea of "Impossible-to-kill Monster=FUN!!11!!!111!!!eleventy-one!!11!!!"
q. Bling and eye-candy scenery are great, but "It's the Story, Stupid."
r. Do your QA so that the game plays right out of the box on most rigs, and doesn't require a zillion tweaks to make it work. Give your instruction manual to someone who hasn't played before to read so that your instructions make sense to a new player. For tech support issues--make the solutions clear and step-by-step. I don't have a lot of time to wade through obfuscating verbosity. By the same token, don't treat me like a complete moron, either. I know my DVD drive is not supposed to be a coffee cup holder, thank you.
s. Good story--wait, even better--a Great story!
t. Replayability with a few different options. If you're going to make me grind for reputation points, at least make the story a little different so I see something new now and then.
u. I had the focus and determination to kill the same 10 wurms outside Boreal station I don't know how many times to get to Legendary Survivor. I did that solely because I think the title is rather cool, even though it's completely useless and was incredibly boring after about the first 3 wurm runs. If you're going to make me grind, at least let it have some kind of benefit like the LB track has.
v. A good story that will run on my rig will make me willing to forgive a whole lot of other problems.

4. Why aren't more girls/women in high-level PvP? Perhaps lack of experience and a lack of confidence. In my case, and this might speak also for a lot of women who work in and out of the home, I could learn the strategy/timing/tactics required for high-end PvP but lack the time to spend doing the practicing required to pull together a top-notch team. I also play to relax, not to win a tourney, and certainly not to get my butt chewed if I don't win a PvP battle. PvP requires a lot of concentration if you want to do well. I have to concentrate hard at work--I don't want my hobby to force me to do the same.

5. Why do I play support characters instead of a warrior? I find running a warrior is not nearly as interesting as ranged, midline, or even monk. I love playing assassin and dervish, but my main favorites are ranger, ele, and necro. I think that's a function of my personality as much as anything else--I'm a big-picture kind of person rather than small details, and playing ele or ranger allows me to scroll out and get a wide view of the area to figure out where the best place is to direct x attack. It's also a lot of fun to do massive AoE damage. I love seeing all the yellow numbers on the screen when I get a great barrage, spiteful spirit, searing flames, or death blossom hit. I don't get that same experience playing as a warrior. I could be just as competitive with my warrior as with my 'sin or dervish, but I can do more interesting things with the latter two, so I play those classes instead.

I might add more to the disseration later, this is enough for now.

Jecht Scye · Sep 04, 2008, 08:13 PM // 20:13

1.) A good story doesn't necessarily mean a girl will like a game. Hell, my fiancee doesn't even really follow the storyline of Guildwars. She's played more than me, and she does because she likes the gameplay(And making her monk look pretty).

2.) I'm male and I enjoy playing a support role more than I do whacking things with a hammer. My main character is an SS necro. I love dealing massive amounts of damage to several targets. My second favorite character is an earth elementalist: I like protecting members of my team in ABs using tanking tactics as well as dealing out weakness and knockdown spells(rendering most melee classes useless.). Some think it's noobish to be an earth ele in ABs, I think it takes an extraordinary amount of finesse. My fiancee plays a similar role in ABs with her water ele - she deals the main damage and I deal the support damage.

Jae Onasi · Sep 04, 2008, 08:33 PM // 20:33

You're right--when I didn't qualify it with 'many' it was too much of a generalization. I changed it accordingly.

Inde · Sep 04, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

Jae Onasi, I have so many funny remarks to that entire paragraph but... I'm trying hard to resist.

Oh what the hey, I'll do one.

"I want to respond to your post Jae Onasi but... well screw it. It's too much work/concentration to think and type it all out."

Pause.

Waits for the irony of that to sink in.

There are different types of players (regardless of gender). You have the:

adventurer - wants to explore everything
lore - wants a storyline, progression, interesting tidbits of info lying around
hardcore - plays 20+ hours a day because they have the time
acheiver - wants to conquer everything first day

So on and so forth.

You can't group a gender into one style of play such as "story". I understand that you meant your post as an opinion, but it certainly came off that you were speaking for the female gender as a whole and it's just not correct. It's not even what the majority of females gamers want, because there is no majority.

This is why it's important for gamers to identify a play style and pick out games that they know they are going to follow and love. I personally tend toward FPS and intense puzzle-games (myst, mysterious island, and the whole line of games in that genre). But speaking for the female gender and saying they don't want to "concentrate enough" to play PvP? That it takes too much time? Believe it or not, the majority of MMOG players are in their early 30's, married, with a job. There are also a high percentage of woman MMOG players who are hardcore (putting in 4, 5+ hours a day). So the "time" arguement can't really be stated as a factor of gender because most of us are in the same boat.

Shadow Kurd · Sep 04, 2008, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jiao Yang

I like girls and games.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lonesamurai

As any hot blooded male should...

Along with cars and beer!!!

You forgot Guns and Violence

Jae Onasi · Sep 04, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

It's OK, Inde, I can laugh at myself, too. As long as you're not too sarcastic to me, I'm good, and I did get a chuckle at your comment.

Well, I did say "in my case" and "might" as qualifications in point 4 addressing PvP, but perhaps a paragraph break would have made it more clear that I was speaking for myself and my particular situation.

I spend a lot of time playing GW and other games, but I don't spend a lot of time in PvP. It's fun once in awhile as something different from the usual PvE, but I don't want to do the work required to be at/near the top in GvG or 1v1. There are likely plenty of women out there who do have the time and inclination to put the work in to be the top-ranked PvPers, which I think is going to be more than just the average time for the average gamer. The best PvPers are going to ideally have good relations with each other (not that they never get upset or angry, but overall good relations ideally), a lot of practice together to achieve the necessary coordination with both their own skills and their teammates' strategy, a lot of time spent studying the maps and studying their opponents' matches to work on offense and defense, a lot of concentration during battles to get the timing just right to kill instead of being killed, etc. It's a decision on my part not to turn my game into something that would end up being more work than fun with me.

SerenitySilverstar · Sep 04, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Pffft, Bish please.

Jezebel.com has a discussion about one of the PAX panels (same one?)

http://jezebel.com/5045534/want-vide...ore-child+like

Pink? Sparkly? Kiss my wammo sass.

R.Shayne · Sep 04, 2008, 09:53 PM // 21:53

My wife plays but I think she doesn't tell anyone she is female anymore, just too many idiots.

I was on her account upgrading her armor when I get a pm asking if I had changed my mind about leaving my husband. Another time when I was doing something on her account I had a guy come up to me and tell me I was still the hottest elementalist in the game. Both time I was laughing so hard I almost cried but really have to wonder, how do women put up with these idiots. It's like guild wars rudeness times ten if they find out your female.